Abuse of power or just the human side of authorities

Picture of Selco


I am Selco and I am from the Balkan region, and as some of you may know it was hell here from 92-95, anyway, for 1 whole year I lived and survived in a city WITHOUT: electricity, fuel, running water, food distribution, without any kind of organized law or government. The city was surrounded for 1 year and it actually was a real SHTF situation. Our allies were our enemies from one day to the next. Today I’m prepared and share my experience on this blog.

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I mentioned several times in last few days that we do not need to label everything, all that matters is what impact it can have on us.

What I meant is we do not need to know why something is happening right away but know something is going on and definitely we need to be prepared for results of that. Again like in all other articles I do not want to judge right or wrong here, just talk about some experiences and give you some things to maybe think about.

I read many times in comments and on different blogs and forums questions and speculations about what authorities gonna do when SHTF, or how police gonna react and what military gonna do. So there is a whole different set of options and opinions, but great majority of them are having the opinion based on mindset that they are used to. They think like before SHTF even though SHTF changes everything into real survival situation with whole different set of rules. And that makes big difference.

I had the idea to write about this because of the Chris Dorner case. Case is interesting because of many things. It shows what trouble one person can do (and now imagine many Chris Dorners start fighting authorities..) and also how authorities try to deal with the troublemaker.

If we are talking about police now, we can agree or disagree that police is there to serve and protect. That really depends on where you live of course. In some countries police are part of problem but in general we can say any authorities are here to make difference between order and chaos.

In case of Chris Dorner when they cornered him in small cabin they threw several “hot” tear grass grenades in his wood cabin to get him out. Many people think this was on purpose to set fire to cabin because these hot tear grass grenades are known to set things on fire. After having 4 of your colleagues killed most people not gonna be easy with the killer.

When people are under big emotional stress this is normal and in long term survival scenario that happens to everyone.

I wanna tell you one story from my SHTF time, it is about law abiding citizens and special police force.

First days of collapse are most chaotic in terms of panic and frightened people, so there is a picture of big number of people who do not know what to do, where to go, and what is gonna be. Looting everywhere, and when folks realize that nobody gonna punish them they just go wild.

One group of people (they all lived in same apartment building) choose to stay in, or to bug in speaking in survival terms. There were couple of days of chaos outside but nobody touched them in that building.

When things get more rough they choose to move in few apartments on same floor and stay together. Anyway after some two or three weeks there were some kind of peace outside. They were on watch on windows carefully checking what is going on, but they could not figure out anything.

Few hours later when dark start to fall they noticed group of some 30 policeman, with helmets, rifles and everything. Special police was still around and in first days after STHF they made weak attempts of putting riots down.

They moved in order and formation. Guys from the building were so happy to see them after weeks of rioting and chaos outside. They were first sign that things maybe get back to normal. They cheered and called them.

Police guys quickly stormed into the building and forced them out. They shoot them after quick search. After that they searched apartments for useful stuff. One of the guys who realized and ran for his life survived and told me his story. They were so quick and professorial in killing that most of the people did not even have time to ask for mercy.

Now what is the importance of this story?

Remember this: When SHTF, there are a guys with guns, and there are guys without guns. Everything else are just labels. Names like police, army, authority, government…
You can not think in the terms that we think today, it is dangerous.

If you read between lines on this website you also come to your own conclusions how you can make chances of your survival better if your group looks like official helpers. Of course do not use this for bad things.

There is nothing deep and philosophic in this story, police force are just bunch of guys with guns who are doing their job today, some of them are good people, some of them are bad people. They all just like us gonna choose what they gonna do when SHTF but when they are in big emotional stress or fight for their survival they might not be nice guys like before. Even if they try to be good they go around and anyone they see can be a Chris Dorner and in all chaos they do not know.

Guys who were hiding in the building were common law abiding folks, and they did not realize that SHTF and that rules had changed, actually rules were gone, so what was before did not matter much. Black can be white, bad can be good, or police force can be simple gang.

Really getting this mindset is also main point of my survival course. Yes, there are my list with supplies and survival guide but with interviews I want you to see how “not natural” it was. Yes, it feels like landing on different planet when society changes like that but if you want to survive you have to be able to be almost comfortable with this.

Now do not get me wrong, I am not saying that we all need to go out and not obey the law. Nothing like that. But when SHTF it is wrong to act like law abiding citizen just because you are used to. It just doesnt make sense and you have to question everything and everyone.

I had that “advantage” or “luck” seeing all that when SHTF, also I am living in what I call “unorganized” country so I am perfectly aware that police here even in “normal” times are armed guys who also work for people who pay more.

So all of my problems I am trying to solve by myself, no real help from authorities. Maybe in your world situation is different and you should be grateful for that. I am not saying that all cops are bad, in your country most cops are probably very good. Just keep in mind people who enforce law and order are humans too and when SHTF or in major disaster that is followed by long term survival situation they are living in new world too in which old rules do not mean much.

I know it is easy for me to say this because I have been in this situation but besides all “technical” or “logistical” aspects of prepping your mind has to be ready for the day when old labels, classification and rules are not working anymore. Only then you can make critical right decisions that can make your chance to survive better.

A few weeks ago we had one guy asking for refund of my course because it was too negative. Of course we gave refund no problem but it was a bit funny because I just talk about my experience.

I hope nobody reading this blog has to ever go through so dark times but if you only know how bad it can get by reading what I write or listening to interviews then this can already help and prepare you for worst case scenario and that is what matters.

Do not live life scared and paranoid like some survivalist do, but also really understand how bad things can get or you maybe have best organized food storage in your whole country but make mistake to invite the wrong guys over for dinner.

Next post is about another type of real survivalist again, I just wanted to write about this thing here because it is so important. How did you experience Chris Dorner case? What do you expect from authorities when SHTF?

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52 Responses

  1. This article confirms for me what I have often speculated… not having ever experienced anything like it personally. But I have often seen little examples of the darker personalities that some authority figures carry around with them. It is not so hard to imagine how they would behave in a world without legal repercussion. Thanks for sharing your experiences, Selco, they are of immense value to a prepared mind.

  2. Easy. Where I grew up we never trusted the police. That’s because here the police in cities are afraid of a bullet. So they act all high and powerful. After the SHTF, a cop will be like a crackhead trying to get my food.

  3. This like all the information you’ve offered is excellent, and being based on personal experience can hardly be criticized by saying, “it couldn’t happen here”. Dream on.

    The guy who found your course too negative must believe that everything will be peaches and cream if/when the SHTF. He’s in for a big surprise if/when it does.

  4. Excellent point, Selco.

    A cop is just a thug, if there are no laws he has to worry about. I imagine these cops probably decided to stay in uniform because they figured stupid people will think they are good guys and let them in or expose themselves to their assault. The clothing someone wears, or that they move in military style formations should not be taken to mean they are on your side.

    Even in normal ‘law and order’ times, there are bad cops, and bad soldiers. There will be lots more of them after SHTF.

    1. Thanks Chris.
      More events like that happened, especially in the beginning when people did not figure how serious whole thing gonna be. It is gonna be again like that when SHTF, so it make sense to be prepared on some things.

      1. Wonder if mutual aid groups ought to get some kind of uniform, in order that when people see them, they think they are part of something bigger, and leave us alone?

        6-12 guys can get a pretty cheap, impressive looking uniform together from unplugs stores, from combat boots to helmets.

    2. You say a cop is just a thug. I would say that taken a %, no more LEO or Military will ‘go rogue’ then will regular folks like you. Your generalizing of LEO is narrow. The truth is everyone is suspect and for me YOU would be high on the suspect list because it has been MY experience that most folks that have a low opinion of LEO have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. NOT YOU? Really? Well that is an assumption for sure…just as your THUG comment is. What you failed to say was in good times AND bad there will be GOOD people. Good LEO. Good Soldiers etc. Caution above all when things go south but caution and fear and being plain paranoid can also put you into a position of making some very serious mistakes. Caution? yes. Verify ? YES. Assume? not so much. Be careful that you don’t kill the golden goose because you miss judge the situation.

      Selco: I would also be interested in hearing of situations where people work together and how they were able to identify each other as SAFE. I ascribe to caution but i also believe there had to be people, if not trusted, were at least able to ‘work with’.

      1. Yes, there were a cases of people working together as a group of normal folks, doing best as they can and they survived, I also will write about them too.
        I also do not like to generalize because it does not make sense and also it is dangerous because it can lead us into the false judgments and wrong actions. Cops are folks just like any other, good or bad. But big difference is when SHTF and cop wants to be bad man, because he is armed and trained for things, and then if you have group of armed and already trained people that makes difference. To explain myself more, in my group I have one professional soldier, and one ex cop, they are very good guys and important members.

      2. Polly, I’m afraid that, especially in this day and age, cops are thugs. What makes them thugs is the laws that they enforce. The laws designed to squeeze the peasants for money, usually passed in the name of ‘public or traffic safety. The glee they take in participating in serving “no-knock” warrants for victimless crimes makes them thugs. The comply or else mindset makes them thugs. The ‘us vs. them’ mentality makes them thugs. Holding “officer safety” above public safety or even common human dignity makes them thugs.
        Cops, especially at the federal level aren’t peace officers. They are gung-ho, politicized, militarized, poorly overseen quasi-soldiers. And they’re getting worse.
        Face it. The main qualification to become a cop today is to be a sociopathic monster.

      3. Polly, Your threatening response confirms what we deeply suspect – the American politicians and judges are in control of us – not the other way around. If you are a police officer in America, ask yourself “When push comes to shove, who do I REALLY protect and serve?” The people?….perhaps when they are good little servants. But if the people resist the establishment (you), the people are to be beaten, and handcuffed, and jailed, and fined, and jailed again until they are submissive to the politicians and the police who serve and protect them.

        Yes, you fear the armed citizen. You fear us when we employ free speech. You especially fear the Constitution and it’s Bill of Rights. It is the center-mass of our LAW, and politicians hate it. They cannot pass laws fast enough to dilute and debilitate every fibre of its legal code. Let them continue because at the end of the SHTF day, our rights are natural, God-given, and you, Mr Policeman, and myself, Mr Army, are subject to US – the people. NEVER the other way around. .
        LTC, US Army (Infantry)

      4. I/m a Board Certified Forensic Neuropsychiatrist and I’ve been a contract evaluator and interrogator with numbers Alphabet agencies over the past 30 years (ret, Maj) and have performed psychiatric evaluations on no less than 4500 law enforcement officers of various types, both military, fed and civilian. 50% of LEOs are of average IQ, conventional and schizoid, doing what their told, and highly susceptible to orders from above. 25% are people who have families with LEOs and have a ethic about protecting the community; these are generally trustworhty, and on the brighter side. A new 25% has emerged since I served In Desert Storm I; the roid heads coming back from the sandbox, hopped up on steroids or sometimes amphetamines, and often oxycontin and other opiates to calm down. They are excited about busting down doors and “kicking ass.” The idiots in LEO administration can’t distinguish them from the former types who should be hired preferentially over them. The latter group is who you worry about when the SHTF, and you should probably have a low tolerance for taking pre-emptive actions against them; the problem is identification. These are the people that use their uniform to dupe the stupid and naive. Most will be killed early on, but some of the brighter and more psychopathic will need to be dealt with eventually or they will deal with the decent people. A major lack of conscience and feeling for others’ situations is a dead giveaway.
        Just sayin……

        Wardoc, DSI vet; US Army Medical Command.

      5. I try to take Selco’s advice and judge each case individually. So, in this way, I kind of agree with you when you say the same percentage of LEOs go ‘rogue’ as regular people. However, this leads to a terrible reputation with the public, because the public HOLDS LAW ENFORCEMENT TO A HIGHER STANDARD. This expectation may be unrealistic for some to accept (especially LEOs who may feel targeted by such criticism), but greater control of self-conduct on the part of every LEO is fundamentally necessary to maintain law and order. As Selco accurately points out elsewhere, reputation on the street is everything. Once Law Enforcement loses their reputation, they have lost everything, including any control over the populace they once had. This is not the opinion of someone ‘with their hand in the cookie jar’ as you suggest, and making targets out of those who are doing their legitimate and necessary duty as a citizen to ensure oversight on the authorities is unwise and counter-productive to the underlying goal of public protection and service to which LEOs have sworn an oath of fealty and to which it is their social duty to abide. The greater incidence of outright murder regarding suspects convicted OF NO CRIME and authoritarian excess in the use of force continuum should be seriously criticized and stopped, because in such cases, the LEO has become the criminal. I could cite specific examples where an LEO fires their weapon with no attempt to subdue a suspect, but the list in the last year alone has grown nearly endless. Even if one must discharge their weapon, obviously a kill shot in every case is unjustifiable. Public discontent is a reflection of poor internal systems of review, which lead to very low conviction rates in cases of LEO abuse, while the incarceration rates of average citizens continues to abide at levels triple the rate of every other civilized nation in the world. At the very least, no LEO has a ‘license to kill’, and every case SHOULD result in a trial by jury. Given how many shooting (or beating) deaths have occurred in the last few years, it is quite telling when one considers how few (if any) public trials have taken place as a result of these actions.

    3. Yes, this is great information! Maybe some (or all) of them weren’t even cops. They may have killed some cops and taken their uniforms & guns etc.. No matter what someone is wearing, I would never trust anyone in a SHTF situation until proven that I could.

  5. Hi Selco,

    I bought your course as soon as I saw where you were from and read your initial information. I spent the year 2000 in Sanski Most, Bih as a UN IPTF Officer and spent a lot of time talking with people and learning about what had happened during those terrible years. Everyone said that they could not believe how people they knew and had lived with, many their whole live, could change so much and become the animals that they became.

    So I take your information such as this article very seriously. I honestly appreciate your bringing this dose of reality to us.


  6. The conditions you describe did happen just a few short years ago right here in the United States of America.

    As we all know from watching it on television, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, law and order in New Orleans, Louisiana dissolved into chaos, with police officers ignoring crimes, refusing orders, abandoning their posts, fleeing the city, participating in looting, and committing cold blooded murders.

    To make the situation even worse, honest citizens were forcibly searched and disarmed, leaving them helpless prey to be victimized by roving criminal gangs, including criminals impersonating F.E.M.A. officials.

    Remember also, the riots in Los Angeles, California, when police were overwhelmed, and the decision was made to abandon the city, leaving citizens completely on their own for self defense, with many of those citizens unarmed and unable to obtain firearms.

    So, yes, it can (and actually did) happen HERE, in our own country, among our own people.

    1. Big difference, actually:

      1. Everyone knew that, however bad it was, the power/water/law and order would soon be back. It was a local event. If the entire country is in the same situation, the attitudes will change drastically.

      2. The government, as corrupt and inefficient as it was, was actually trying to help. What Selco is talking about is hell on Earth, when armed people were killing those who could not fight back.

  7. Dorner obviously had the goods on the LAPD corruption. He wrote about a lot of it in his manifesto but I’ll bet there was a lot more. The other LAPD cops did not want to just arrest him because all that stuff would come out in a trial, so they murdered him. At least, most of the people THINK that he was killed. Dorner already arranged the torching of his truck. This could have been a staged event, OR, some other guy looking like Dorner stole a vehicle, got cornered by police in cabin, and shot it out with them because he didn’t want to go to jail. Could have been just some other car thief! You could write a ballad about the legend of Chris Dorner. Like Elvis, he could still be alive! But, I digress. What I expect from authorities, at least here, locally out in the boonies in the county, LEOs will go home and stay with and protect their families, short term, maybe a couple of weeks. There will be no payrolls in SHTF, so no real incentive to stay on the job. There aren’t enough of them to form much of a gang, especially since they are WAY outgunned by all the gun enthusiasts around here. If word got out that they were doing bad stuff, they would be killed on sight. Around here there are about as many shepherds as there are sheep, and there’s a lot of community cohesiveness. I expect most of the trouble to come from meth addicts, of which there is a large number, and anyone with any other addiction, and from the mentally unstable.

    1. Yeh, strange, and totally against protocol, the authorities inviting news choppers to hover over the burning cabin. Brought back thoughts of the last scene in the movie, ‘Fahrenheit 451’. “Let the sheep think we caught the ‘bad guy’, and justice has prevailed!”

      1. I think you’re fantasizing a little too much. Dorner died. They cornered him and torched him. He’s not really a hero, either. A balad? For all his many good deeds? Killing people in cold blood does not make you a hero. He could have dealt with his problems like a normal adult, but he decided to resort to random violence. I don’t see how that deserves a balad.

  8. One only has to look at the Post-Katrina debacle to see that police here (USA) are as capable as anyone else of shifting to the “Dark Side” when the rules fail. Some cops are thugs, true, but not all nor even most; the ones that are, are the ones remembered. Same thing in any group or class, for example motorcycle riders: for every Hell’s Angel or Bandito that you see there are a hundred or more average riders that you ignored. It may not be safe to trust every cop during a SHTF scenario, but neither is it fair to condemn every cop. I’m not a cop, but I have friends and training partners that are. I also know a few that I wouldn’t throw a rope to, if I saw them drowning. They’re made out of people, just like the rest of us, and they “break” just like the rest of us.

    Chuck B.

  9. John,

    You are absolutely correct about Katrina. In fact, not quite the same, but last week we had two examples of police in Southern Calif. probably panicking that fired on innocent citizens that were in vehicles “similar” to dorner’s. That just can’t happen but did.

  10. Seems to me, most cops in the US these days CAN act with impunity. They taser old folks in wheelchairs. They routinely use maximum force, like knocking a pregnant lady’s feel out from under her, throw her to the ground (face down, potentially killing the unborn child), kneel on the woman’s neck to handcuff her wrists… and her crime was using a cell phone while driving and not understanding their commands. And how many citizens have the killed–either using tasers or just plain shooting them? And they are NEVER punished, or almost never punished. So. In this country, cops already ignore the laws… of common sense, of decency…OK, maybe some of them are decent folks. But the reports of cop abuse just keep piling up.

  11. Hi again my friend.

    As I know you know better than I, the person who wanted a refund of your course is overwhelmed with the possibility of life changing to the degree it will change into. I felt very sad for that person as he just can’t handle the real survival situation that millions, if not billions will face. However, if he was listening to your recordings, he at least sees the possibility of a drastic change coming. He too took the “red” pill and once you see the truth, you cannot forget it. He and others can pretend they don’t know what is coming and that they too may have to go into a survival mentality, but when it happens, they will know as you do, survival is not some television show.

    Now, regarding the Dorner case, we will never know the truth of what really happened. Dead men tell no tales. I am not sure Christopher Dorner was actually guilty as I no longer believe our media or much of what is said by our government. The police were doing everything to prevent this guy from ever having a day in court. The police shot innocent people, shot at other people without ever knowing who they were shooting at. They also ransacked over 600 homes without warrants, which here in America is supposed to happen. If you listen to the recordings of police conversations over their radios, they clearly say, “burn the motherfucker”. Dorner was murdered, plan and simple by police acting like bad gangs.

    We may not need to know why this happened, but I feel it is necessary to know as much as possible in order to wake up Americans. We have had things so good here, that it takes as much information as can be acquired to help other sleeping Americans put the puzzle together and realize what is being done and what is coming.

    Personally, I think this Dorner case is just a reason to get Americans used to less and less freedom and more and more tyranny. It is kind of like putting a frog in hot water, it will jump out, but if you put the frog in cool water and turn up the heat, the frog will sit there as he is not aware that the water is getting hotter and will eventually be cooked to death. This evil here is not as overt as they have been in other countries. The destruction of America is a slow death, not quick. However it is getting more brazen and they are not so secretive as it has been in the past. There are too many inconsistencies in the Dorner story as there is in the Sandy Hook shooting.

    I think law enforcement will in many cases be very deadly when they try to take guns in America, but when they realize that millions will use our guns to defend ourselves and our rights, many will stop and return to their homes to protect their families. Once chaos really starts, they as will many people will do unspeakable things, kill others for water, food, televisions or just because they can. There are people here who are preparing and gathering together to better our chances to defend against those who did not prepare and against a tyrannical government. With your experience and advice, more of us may survive, at least I hope so.

    Your information is invaluable and I show it to everyone I can as well as telling them they should spend a little bit of money for your course to save theirs and their children’s lives. And if nothing happens right now, they can use this information in the future.

    God Bless you Selco and thank you for everything. Again, I hope to meet you some day and we can have a coffee or something together.

    Peace be with you my brother.

  12. SHTF or not Police will abuse their power at all times. I watch off duty cops speed and blow stop signs and break laws every day. They know they are a part of the largest and best armed gang and do not have to obey laws.

    Remember that. The police and military are no different than any gang other than they have more money and resources. They will use you for their own needs at all times.

    In SHTF, police are just as much your enemy as the gangbanger, many times even more your enemy because they get rewarded for controlling you, taking your resources, or executing you as an enemy combatant while trying to exploit the “we are here to help” facade they carefully craft.

    Ask people that live in areas that are currently SHTF. Ask people how cops acted in New Orleans after Katrina. Ask Syrian citizens how their army and police act.

    Never trust the police, Ever. They are not there for you, your best thing is to be invisible to them. Do not attract their attention, do not let them see you or notice you.

  13. Selco, Do NOT STOP!!!. The information is Great! Having seen things , Like Somalia three days after Black Hawk down and the like, I do understand TSHTF. Your sharing of the realities , the whole Kosvo/Bosina thing being under covered or in some places yada yada, ignored as a “Eastern Euro” thing is as was a bit of a shame , in terms of true facts.

    I, personally think,that your posts are good, and revelant, as there are so few out there, willing to tell truths, as THE Truth! is a philospohical falsehood. Thanks again, and I , for one do not consider what I paid for you course. subsciption to be a waste, at all!

  14. Ho boy, big can of worms. Yes, the police are already a BIG problem in many communities, but most people believe that if it were not for the police, things would be much worse. Fact is, that the entire “criminal justice system” (and I should underline, and capitalize “criminal”) is So incredibly corrupt, and broken, that it is beyond any hope of repair, or salvage. I guess the best we can hope for, is that after it is all over, whoever is left can start over with a fresh slate, and not make the same mistakes. In truth, I doubt that it will be possable to put this country back together again. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. We may eventually become a country again, or just become an assimilated part of the world, as the “Leaders” are trying to force us to do now.
    I worked as a carpenter in New York’s Long Island, back in trhe ’60’s, and there was a pair of moonlighting cops (they would sleep on their shifts, and then work day jobs) They would brag to the rest of us how they would steal cars, and strip them in the alleys behind the apartment buildings, and the other cops would look out for them. These were the “good guys”.Even then, there was a lot worse.
    I live in Montana now. I believed that by moving my family here, I could get them away from the horrible mess that the city was becomming. Lrt me tell you a couple of stories about what is going on here. There was a fellow who lived with his family on a small piece of land outside a small town south of here. He had a few semi-tame elk living on the place, and he fed and cared for them, and they trusted him enough that the big bull would let him rub his neck. Anyway, this man was a “tax protestor” and often wrote scathing letters to the editor of the local paper, protesting what he saw as illegal actions by the county commissioners, police, and other city and county “officials.” He had an old “land fill ” (dump site) on the back of the property, and for years the county had been paying him a few bucks to dump things that they didn’t want showing up in the
    public land fill. About this time, the EPA began sending inspectors around, to close up all these “unapproved” local sites, and force everyone to use the private garbage contractors, They poked around, and then told him that he would have to close down his dump, and clean up all the “hazardous” products, within so many days, or face potentuially millions in fines! He responded that it was the county’s problem. Well, you can probably guess how THAT went over. Next thing he knew, he was told (when he went into town to re-register his vehicles,) that he was no longer in the computer system! A few days later his wife went into town for groceries, and as soon as a deputy spotted her car, he put on his lights and ordered her to “pull over”. She went directly home, instead, with the deputy close behind, lights and siren on. As they pulled into the yard,
    their teen aged son came out onto the porch, with a shotgun in his hand, to see what all the fuss was about.
    The deputy spun around and went back to town, but now the cops were charging them with criminal flight to avoid procecution, resisting arrest, and threatening an officer with a firearm.
    The events steamrolled, with more charges being filed by the day, and the family being demonized in the press for not “facing the music” for their “crimes”.At night, groups of thugs would cruise up and down the road, firing guns and dareing the”cowards to come out”. The sheriff, becoming more and more impatient with not being able to force them to surrender, called the governor for help. The next day, an armed national guard helicopter flew low over their home, pointing the guns at the family, attempting to terrrorize them into surrender. It didn’t work, and the governor claimed that the helicopter was “not armed” and was only there to observe. In the mean time, the sheriff, and the county attorny were meeting with the banker who held the mortgage on the land, to get him to call in the loan. They were frantic to get him off the land, and get it covered up, before it became a federal case. Finally, out of patience, the sheriff announced that if they didn’t surrender, and leave the property by noon the next day, he was going to mount a full scale assault.
    During the night, a group of “concerned citizens” formed an armed convoy and led the family to the border, where they met with other folks who led them to a place of safety in Idaho. Several days later, the man and his son returned, and surrendered. While they were gone, the sheriff, and agents from the Montana dept. of fish, wildlife, and parks went onto the land and drove the herd of elk into cattle trucks, “darted them, and then hauled them to an undisclosed location. The animals, sedated, in shock and stressed, were overcrowded in the cattle cars, and were never given any care or attention. The bull, and the head cow both died from this criminal abuse, by people who are supposed to be experts in such things. It was an act of pure vengence, against anyone who would dare challenge the dictates of the “system”

  15. For what it’s worth, Selco you the man. I ordered your course because life from my perspective won’t prepare me for what’s coming and your perspective will. I’ve never trusted the police but never thought about their actions after SHTF. Only those with guns and those without is pure Gold and right on the mark. Anyone concerned with only beans bullets and bandaids will be sorely under prepared without the knowledge you impart. Thanks for all the invaluable information. Jim

  16. Maybe we forget that “man” is animal, and can be reduced to lowest common denominator. Every “man” is justified in his own eyes. I am sure that no one can know himself before he has a chance to experience his own ‘worse case’ time. I’ll bet that even a ‘hero’ doesn’t prepare to be good. Instinct will decide in split second what a person is made of. I don’t believe most stories I hear in the news, and believe they are often made up to manipulate our thinking about justice, etc. As a matter of fact, I suspect maybe the story is a script and the opposite is true. The media is also part of the problem, in my mind, as it sways public opinion towards “authority”. I do wonder sometimes why some people are drawn to those jobs of law enforcement in first place. One of my grandfathers was a policeman on a horse before police got cars, and there was an aire about him that made me afraid of him. I was taught that policemen were community helpers, but I heard some of his stories and thought them ‘one sided”.. Later when we grew up, one of my brothers who admired that man wanted to be like him and became a policeman. But when he realized how corrupt some of his co-workers were, he could not continue to be with that force. Why are they called the “pollice force….force, anyway,?
    I realized when playing “hide and seek”, in my younger adult years, that the one who hides well can win the game, because by moving around you have more chance to be observed and caught.. I think that one way to practice (if just a thing could help) would be to play “hide and seek”, and learn to breathe in the panic. I remember I could hear my heart pounding in my head and a very loud buzz, until I had played time and again, and could think of a strategy. I really appreciate that you give us picture of reality. We should remember that one of the goals of the U.N Agenda 21. is to reduce world population to small number and those who are working for that goal want to be the survivors. In a sense, they only think to survive, too. I could never been able to understand man’s inhumanity to man. Can anyone explain that????

  17. I think what I fear most in a SHTF scenario is the government and law enforcement. They are the ones you are taught to respect and it is hard to conquer those teachings. However, in a case of survival, those are the ones that I am most suspect of. They are humans before they are law enforcement. So many in today’s world lack the morals that were present a few years ago. Today they who are trained best will be the worst offenders of law and order. I do fear them – terribly.

  18. In Canada, where I live, we have a very small military. It’s hard for most people to believe, but in a country with about 33 million people we have only 25,500 regular army soldiers and about 16,000 reserve, and basically the lowest population density of any developed nation. Plus we have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which is basically a paramilitary police force of about 20,000. That adds up to 61,500 people, many of which are not “boots on the ground” types.

    There are about 2 million licensed firearms owners in Canada. If the security force decides to turn on the population in any significant way, they will have a tough time. They are outnumbered 32 to 1 just in terms of civilians with LEGAL firearms, of which most own multiple firearms and would likely be able to arm their sons and brothers and so on if needed.

    If you do the math, that’s only one military type per 540 people in Canada. Add in the local police forces and it brings the number to around one per 300 civilians if you live in a city. It’s a big problem if they decide to roll up on YOU, but compared to just about any other nation the threat of military/police abuse is minimal. Unlike many other countries where the police force is highly militarized, where cops have ARs or AKs on hand, ours is not. Regular police and RCMP just have sidearms and shotguns available, with tiny numbers of tactical officers armed with military style gear.

    I always hear stories about how terrible police are, but I have yet to have a bad experience with a Canadian police officer or RCMP in the few situations I’ve come into contact with them. By international standards they are not at all corrupt. Every Canadian military member I have met has impressed me as an honourable person. I feel like overall the integrity of our security forces is much better than most countries.

    There will surely be bad apples in an SHTF situation, but I feel like I’m lucky here in Canada, as the government really doesn’t have the manpower to take effective police-state action, and there really aren’t enough security force personnel with military equipment to pose a huge threat if elements go rouge.

  19. So creepy that they came in like terminators and just assassinated any indication of life efficiently. That’s like playing on hardcore mode. Most gangs might interrogate or mess with their victims a bit, but these guys were still highly ordered and disciplined and the mission was murder. And once they’ve secured the site, they immediately begin with the Secured Site Exploitation (SSE), and procure supplies. Very messed up.

    As I told someone else who asked me about Chris Dorner…he was in the right (initially). There is evidence that his partner used excessive force on a mentally handicapped SUSPECT (not prisoner) in custody. And he did the “right” thing and reported it. They fired him for LYING, which he did not do. In fact, he was the only one telling the truth. Maybe to some people, that isn’t important. To me, it is. It’s wrong to punish someone for telling the truth, especially when that truth happens to be one of the fundamental tenets of our checks-and-balances society. Whistleblower Protection doesn’t exist in a police force, and why not? Without it, the protect-and-serve community could easily become the dominate-and-enslave (as happened to the handicapped man).

    Economic collapse of society is associated to Political collapse, either of which is preceded by progressively higher levels of instability. What is the Law Enforcement system than simply a subset of the Political system? When the LAPD system became broken, Dorner had no choice but to go outside the system to find justice that fit his own moral code. Agree or disagree, look at larger examples like Greece. Suicide rates through the roof; death is the only option (to them), because they can’t find justice in the collapsing system. Right or wrong, in a collapsing country more and more people will choose to walk their own path and live life by their own rules when nobody is enforcing someone else’s code upon them. This is technically anarchy, but the individual can use their power of ultimate freedom for good or evil, the choice is theirs. Like Selco has mentioned, the definitions of “good” and “evil” change as the conditions deteriorate.

    Selco, man, I really love this site. I can’t fathom someone wanting a refund for such a fascinating story. I haven’t forgotten that email you sent me, but I’m ashamed to admit I got started on it late and now it’s gotten a bit bigger than I imagined! I wanted to kind of completely talk about the issue, but it’s hard to know where to begin, and I’m in my Master’s course now, so lots of other projects and things to write.

    Keep up the good work!

  20. When you are a LEO, and the only tool you have is a hammer, everything and everybody looks like a nail. Stay low, keep out of view, don’t stand out. Let the other idots get bashed. When things smooth out (after all the nails are driven in) you will be left standing.

  21. Actually similar situations like this did happen in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The police stormed homes of people who could care and protect themselves, removed their ability to protect themselves and arrested them for having had the ability to protect themselves. To this day people are still fighting to get their hand guns returned to them.

  22. I commend you Selco for hitting the nail on the head…again!!! And it can’t be that difficult for you, because you lived to tell your tales. You’ve seen and heard humans acting out at our most basic animal level, and that’s the scariest place anyone could be. The cops going in and killing people strikes a chord because they are supposed to be trusted. That could be any group moving around, killing people, stealing, surviving, but it was cops. There became a time after SHTF, they were no longer cops, and those poor people were caught in the wrong thought, and were murdered. From the responses, there are those of you who don’t trust cops now, let alone in a SHTF scenario. Cops are just like any other group in society, a few good, most in the middle then a few bad. The problem lately is the bad ones are getting away with bad things right out in the open, and that is more prevalent in the cities. That is one more thing that will make those cities complete hell when the time comes. I’ve had a lot of people tell me I was a good cop. I’ve seen other good cops and I’ve seen bad cops, but most were in the middle…and could be swayed either way.

    The hate machine seems to be moving at an ever faster pace. Politicians are doing more for themselves and the corporations that put them in office and shitting on hard working people. Main stream media is outright lying. They all know they can because the majority of people are so distracted, that they will be rolled over quickly when it’s time. I knew Dorner was a dead man from the first moment I read his writing. And I read three different ones. A 9, then 11 then 18 pager, and I’m glad I read the former first!! The latter added the political and gun control stuff that I fully believe he didn’t write. But too many other people will believe that and believe the villain he was made out to be. His story is totally sad and I sympathized with him, as he was left with nothing. I was sad when I watched him killed, knowing that was coming, because he knew things that were too important to get out…so we will never truly know.

    Through my training, and that includes reading Selco’s experiences, when the time comes, each one of us needs to be valuable in some way. Value, in a survival scenario takes on a whole new definition. What are You worth to others? Figure that out if you haven’t already, and you may fair better. Because you will not last long any other way.

    My continued appreciation to you Selco for sharing!!

  23. I will summarize Selco’s article:

    Civilization is a very thin veneer on most people, easily stripped away. When things are good and police enforce the law, most people will obey to avoid dealing with the consequences.

    When things go bad, so do most people.

    “Not me and my family!”

    That view may depend on where you are standing relative to what me and my family have to do to survive, and we will survive.

    Once you realize and accept these thoughts, you can start thinking and planning on how you should prepare so you and your family can survive.

    This lesson is: “Don’t judge a book by it’s cover.”

  24. Be it family, locals, LEO’s or any other group of humans, they all can be very dangerous. A lone human will either flee, want to join or attack. A group of humans (like a group of wild dogs) have a Pack Mentality and are usually very dangerous. Those with weapons are even more dangerous and likely to be fatal if you are spotted and targeted.

    I plan to keep well clear of any groups (human or not). Rambo-type of preppers are just as deadly as rougue gang of LEOs. All it takes is for them to taste power and blood once. Once the good members of the LEO realize that the bad LEO’s outnumber the good, they will abandon their position and go to protect their family. As it should be. As Selco said, you need to be weary and alert, and not over-trusting or hyper-paranoid. You need to be able to live another day with a level head about realities around you, this is survival. Many live this way everyday around the world and do enjoy life’s little pleasures. A smile, a hug, a laugh, a good cry, a meal that doesn’t taste like manure …. Those who can not do this now, will likely be the most dangerous ones to watch out for (from my many personal experinces).

  25. I lived in Africa during some SHTF situations. The first shock people get is when they call 911 and help does not come. People in western counties have been conditioned to rely on “the authorities” for any minor and major emergency and don’t know how to deal with it themselves. After SHTF you can forget about help from the police, you will have to fend for yourself with possible help from family and a community armed response team if you can set one up.

    As for the police, most officers are good people and are trying to serve their community but obviously there are also some bad apples. After SHTF things are exaggerated; the good officers do their best but are simply overwhelmed. The bad officers take advantage of their position of power to work with criminals and extort the public.

    I recently spoke to my aunt in South Africa. She has been hijacked and had an attempted kidnapping recently, but she is now even more scared of the police as they are known to pull over single women and rape them at the side of the road.

    After SHTF you still have to obey police commands because they usually have you outgunned but you have to be very wary of them and don’t automatically trust someone just because he has a badge.

    Things will also depend on where you live, in South Africa where I used to live the police force now has a strong criminal element. I Canada where I now live the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for the most part contains honest good officers. Obviously things will change after SHTF but I still have some faith in the RCMP. I am more concerned about the militarization of police in the US.

    The best advice I can give people is to give yourself and your family firearms and emergency medical training and be prepared as much as possible for a situation where there is no 911 response.

  26. The discussion here has mainly been about police but it is also good to remember that other emergency services such as medical and fire also suffer after SHTF so you should also bear this in mind in your planning.

    1. It goes for all emergencies services of course. It comes to surprise when you realize no law, fire department and medical services no more, and you have to defend yourself, cure yourself or pay costly to find someone to help you when you sick.

  27. Selco, thanks for a great blog. I have trouble viewing the comments on my Iphone and the pictures take very long to load so maybe your webmaster could optimise the website to also work with mobile devices.

  28. I think we here in the US of A found out what you are talking about above already. A lot of people never will admit it, but after Hurricane Katrina we saw/heard stories about law enforcement and how some left their post and took off, some stay on though were powerless to do any good, some even looted with the looters and then there were those in charge who tried and was able to use an unknown law (it was a law to make sure a resource like guns and ammo were not held by one person, but distributed out to the masses to help protect themselves and the community), twist its meaning to confiscate firearms, with the help of the National Guard. Though for the rest of the country it was like nothing had changed, for them in the hurricane zone, it was SHTF for months. So my friend I fully understand what you are tell us and I will not act like, “we are so special, it can never happen in America”, because I know it can. I thank you much for that. I, if mass SHTF happens here in the USA, will now rethink if some person approaches me in a uniform to not let my guard down. For all I know that person or people might have stolen it from some police station and is social engineering me to comply.

  29. Selco, the story you related to us is what Jack over at the Survival Podcast refers to as “normalcy bias”. You expect things to continue as they were even when, all evidence to the contrary, things have clearly changed and what used to look like and act like a police officer (for instance) may look like a police officer but act nothing like one. It can be as simple as someone still turning the lights on every day even when the electricity has been off for months. Still locking their doors when there are no windows left on the house, and huge gaping holes in the walls from mortar rounds. Still checking the mail box even though the post man is two blocks down the road, dead in the street. Any of us can get trapped in this mental freeze, and it is deadly. We all must adapt to “what is” as quickly as possible. Normalcy bias is at it’s most deadly when the man who used to wave a friendly wave when you walked by his house is now waving a firearm at you, or a wrench towards your head. You must unfreeze and act, move, get off the “X”.

    Great article, Selco, sorry I’m coming in late. 🙂

  30. Police have inherent education and/or character flaws. They are a form of mercenary, meaning they will serve their employer regardless of morality, so long as the law instructs them to do so. If the “law” tells them that sodomy is illegal, as it was prior to the 70’s, they will arrest said offender and jail or kill them in the process of resisting arrest. If religion is outlawed as it was in the soviet union, they arrest the priests and throw them in the Gulag. Order should be kept by the people themselves, not by police. They are a modern development and not necessary.

  31. “A few weeks ago we had one guy asking for refund of my course because it was too negative. Of course we gave refund no problem but it was a bit funny because I just talk about my experience.”

    How pathetic. What a crybaby. “Waaah, I can’t hear about negative things, it might threaten my self image. Waaaah.” What do you want to bet he’s an armchair commando to all his buddies?

  32. I think a lot of folks on here generalize far too much. Cops are like everyone else. Maybe more so. There are good ones, bad ones, and a lot of mediocre ones in the middle. Bad ones, like the lazy ones in NYC who refuse to help folks having heart attacks because they’re on coffee break. Good ones, like the NYC cop who bought a pair of boots for a bum. And mediocre ones, who are just there to get a paycheck for doing as little as possible, who can’t shoot above the bare minimum at their bi-annual qualification and just fly a desk for a living.

    Take a look at police in Iraq. They barely keep order on a good day. The public they police all have AKs, just like them. When there’s real trouble, they mainly run away. They sell their uniforms and weapons and vehicles and fuel. They live in fear of the public, so they have to sneak into work in civilian clothes and change at work, and wear masks to protect their identity from reprisals. They sell information to anyone willng to pay. They also sell protection and cut deals with dangerous folks to look the other way. They probably wouldn’t do the job at all, but they need to make money somehow-not everyone can have a cell phone shop. Still, they do occasionally keep order.

    I also look at Russia, post-1991, as an example. The Russian Militsia were corrupt. They committed extortion and took bribes. They kept order except where organized crime was present. They bullied the locals, protected the powerful, and stayed out of the way of the mafia. And things were sort of orderly. If you wanted to do business, you had to “pay for a roof” from your local protection racket. And if you wanted something safe, you had to go to the police or army to pay for their services.

    I had a friend who was sailing a boat in the Black Sea. He docked in Odessa and paid for security on his boat while he was in town getting supplies. He said they put 2 big military-looking guys right in front of the boat who just stood there for hours, staring at it. Nothing was taken or disturbed, but he said it was funny and obviously the result of a culture where people were cheap.

  33. Selco, ill comment for a little bit. I am ex military( rather recent) and i can comment on the military side just a little bit. Active Military will do what they are told as a whole. A percentage of the military might defect, and the rest might enforce “laws”. Even if they are no laws, Natural Law still takes precidence. It wouldnt surprise me if they took over a section of town and started patrols or something similiar to provide ” justice” for a neighborhood. Sort of like a defense agency would for a customer. I suspect that the military as a whole would follow blindly any orders or they are at risk. Just me though, it happened in Bagdad, it happened in Katrina, it happens everyday. The “state” might just try to use its monopoly on force on the public. Like quarantine zones, curfews, etc..OR they just might use Psychological warfare to calm things down. Either way i dont think government will be able to help much. Since supplies might be rare, rationing could occure. Then thefts might occure ..Then they step in and shoot a few ppl which escalates a mob then chaos. At the end of the day i think 25% of Law wil defect to the populace, and 25% might become neutral and confused and tend to their homes, and the remaining 50% just might do what they are told. I can see Officers mostly defectingm while younger ppl doing the fighting if it comes to that. Just my opinion, as a former veteran i dont hold to much faith in the US military to do good things. Im sure it is possible for some units to go rogue and regroup with their employers while funneling supplies to the public (mafia style?) but im unsure. Im very negaive about it.

  34. I am also a recent Army Vet. March 2009. I’m a bit older, but am young at heart. I first entered the Army in 1984, but had a break in service, so I din’t do the whole 25 years in the Army. I have been in several types of units, but my last duty station was at Ft. Stewart with the 3rd ID. I was part of the CCMRF (See Smurf) CBRNE Consequence Management Reaction Force. CBRNE is Chemical, Biological, Radological, Nuclear and Explosive. I was a bit disconcerted about this, because while it seemed like a great idea and had good intentions, I know it could have gone south real fast had something really happened. I personnally questioned why they did this. Didn’t every state have a CST? (Civil Support Team) They are made up of AGR Army and Air Force for the most part, to respond to WMD or other militarty type emergencies. While stationed at Fort Leonardwood MO, a friend of mine was the First Sergeant of the 7th CST, which was stationed at Leonardwood at the time, responded top the breakup and downing of an F-15. They were closest and the Air Force needed the site secured.

    As you mentioned most soldiers will do what they are told, up to a point. But it’s more a “frog in water” deal. Disaster happenes, they get deployed to keep the peace and help with rescue and such. If the disaster lasts long enough, then this is where mission creep can take place. What happens when the military unit starts to run out of fuel? They may try to requisition form the civilain population at first and even try to pay for it. This is what we did in the first gulf war in Kuwait. We put a PO in the drawer of a Ford dealer and made off with several full sized Broncos. Did the gov pay? Probably. Or the Kuwaiti Gov did it for us later. What of later when people realize money is worthless and wont sell? Do they just take it? What about food, or anything they think they need to keep order? Got to feed soldiers, or there WILL be trouble.

    Anyhow, what about food? Soldiers have the guns and many of them aren’t any differnt form the population as a whole morally, but now they are armed and and trained. They become a BIG Gang. Hopefully the Senior NCOs and Officers will keep things a straight as they can and not let things get too out of control. BIG HOPEFUL though.

    This brings me to another point, I have retreat property near an Army base. I have ties to it, unlike a regualr civilan, but still, I’m not in anymore. Would the Post Commander make it better for those living around that Post or Worse? Kind of a two edged sword. It probably would be better initially, but after a certain time like running out of food and fuel, it may be worse.

    Just my thoughts

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